On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 8:20 AM, Jim Weninger <jwen1@yahoo.com> wrote:

I’ve been reading again “God Star”, and Dwardu definitely had the correlation right, when talking of the sun’s position relative to Taurus and the Pleiades,  as being used to mark calendars in ancient times. This is still a tool used by some cultures to mark calendars (the position of the sun relative to the constelation).  Then he says also very correctly, “If this turns out to be correct, the association of the Pleiades with this planetary deity requires an explanation since this constellation has no observable connection with the planet Saturn”.

   So, we have records from ancient times that used the sun in Taurus to mark the calendar, we have cultures in modern times that do the same, and a seeming continuous use in between.  Note of course that with precession, the sun’s position drifts over time. Yet when we see a culture that depicts the sun between the horns of the bull, and can trace that culture back to a time when sure enough, that postion of the sun (that’s our current sun to be sure!) between the horns does match their “time”, we still are going to make this about Saturn?  

    Again, if this bull with star/planet between its horns came down to us without context, we could make it about Saturn, or anything we wanted.  But the context has always been the same. Ancient peoples as far back as we can trace, (and some still now), use the sun’s position relative to the constellation, to distinguish not only where they are in the year, but where their year is in time compared to other years.  

   Once again, I’m not denying the polar configuration, or Saturn’s position in it. Just that not ALL the mythology handed down to us comes from this one time, or this one event.  Basically, all cultures around the world, were aware of precession, and that the sun’s position relative to background constellations was the only way to keep track of longer term cycles. This was common knowledge around the world until the idea was accepted that the world was created  mere thousands of years ago.  No reason to track where the sun is in the precessional cycle, if the whole universe was not around long enough for even half of one cycle.      

           

 

 

rom: Juan Calsiano <juancalsiano@gmail.com>

To: Jim Weninger <jwen1@yahoo.com>
Cc: “dj@argos.vu” <dj@argos.vu>; jhafner <jhafner@swcp.com>
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: Taurus History

Hi Jim and all!

That Taurus was first identified as the Bull of Heaven (and not the other way around!) in “Babylonian times” could very well be the case, at least in principle. This doesn’t mean that the Bull of Heaven global archetype was generated at such times, of course.

Actually, all of the archetypes (the seemingly outrageous global agreements) are clearly prehistoric, i.e. they reflect memorialized events before the rise of (at least what we understand to be) the first civilizations like the Babylonians. And the Bull of Heaven is one of these archetypes of course, so this would be consistent with the position of all the mytho-historical scholars that argue that the associations of archetypes with constellations came after the proto-planetary deities left the main stage (so to speak).

That is, the Bull of Heaven archetype, the Sun God archetype and the intimate connection between these two archetypes were all generated before the association to constellations, an association that absolutely did happen but after the original stimulus (the theater in the sky) was not longer there. Or so is the argument.

Again, in order to reconstruct what actually happened we need very reliable data. Nothing less than that will suffice. In order to extract reliable data from obviously unreliable witnesses, we may learn from forensics the golden rule of prehistorical reconstruction:

“All isolated ancient sources are absolutely unreliable by themselves. Reliable conclusions can only arise from a detailed convergence of global testimony that would otherwise be impossible to exist in the absence of a shared extraordinary natural experience”. 

The reliable data points that any reasonably scientific reconstruction must include are the “archetypes”, the very detailed yet completely outrageous global patterns. There are hundreds of archetypes, most of them identified by many “mainstream” scholars before Velikovsky and his followers, and not a single of those patterns are understandable in terms of our current skies. Not one of them. Yet each and every one must have an explanation.

A few of the mysterious global archetypes are:

1) The Bull of Heaven

2) The God / Goddess with Outstretched Arms

3) Twin Peaks of the World

4) The Cosmic Pillar

5) The Cosmic Mountain

6) The Ship of Heaven

7) The Ship of Day and Night

8) The Inverted Ship of Night

9) The Heavenly Twins

10) The Separation of the Heaven and Earth

11) The “Beginning” of Time

Etc.

There are many many other global patterns, like the Serpent / Dragon, the Mother Goddess, the Warrior / Hero, each of the distinct characteristics of the Warrior Hero (the swelling god, god of the underworld, the scarred god, the pupil of the eye), etc.

All of these global agreements must be data points in any scientific reconstruction worth their salt. It is the reliable mytho-historical evidence that absolutely makes no sense, but must make sense.

But the most fascinating thing is that all these data points are interconnected! The ancient sources demonstrate that the bull of heaven is inseparably connected to the outstretched arms, the twin peaks of the world, the cosmic pillar, etc.

In my humble opinion, the unparalleled strength of Dave’s Talbott (and others) argument is that if you postulate just one particular seemingly outrageous configuration in the sky, it seems that you can deduce or “retrodict” most if not all of these global patterns! Even more, many of the interconnections between the different archetypes seem to make immediate sense just by following the physical demands of the hypothesis.

To see how the eleven archetypes that I mentioned above are retrodicted from the so-called “polar configuration”, and more importantly, to see how they interconnect, you can review Discourses of an Alien Sky, from #11 to #23. Here is my youtube playlist, which I actually recommend watching in full:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nw_YoinTgfc&list=PLKlF2aI12kTYNfpueHT00OSMOQJ0T-n3I&index=22

Of course, the video is just a quick glimpse of the vast library of mytho-historical-symbolical evidence available. If any anyone wants to get serious, there are voluminous publications discussing this with much greater detail.

So we have this PC idea that seemingly explains very simply a big part of the hundreds of universal agreements between the ancient cultures and is seemingly supported by increasing amounts of evidence from the hard sciences, like for example what I mentioned today regarding Venus, Mars, comets being pieces of planets excavated by the “thunderbolts of the gods”, etc.

If you are challenging the proto-planetary basis of the reconstruction (for example, when claiming that The Bull of Heaven archetype has nothing to do with planets), then you have the burden of at least showing how all those archetypes (and Venus as Mother Goddess, Mars as Warrior / Hero, etc.), all of which are global patternsthat seem to be easily explained by the PC hypothesis, could be also explained by a completely different hypothesis / model where extra-solar stars such as Taurus are the gods (remember that the bull of heaven was a deity).

And this is actually only a relatively minute part of the whole colossal burden, as I briefly tried to explain in my previous email, e.g. if we humans were here for so long and with very high levels of sophistication, where’s the overwhelming evidence from all the branches of science converging to such a very radical proposal?

Again, I am not an expert by any means, so please do not believe me! Anyway, I need to focus on my thing… This topic is too exciting for me, please stop! LOL 

I’m currently studying Collective Electrodynamics by one of my heroes, Carver Mead. If you want to switch a bit into Physics, I highly recommend watching this lecture:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnwX2IF46m0

It was great speaking with you guys today, have a good night!

Cheers,
Juan

 

On 12 September 2017 at 01:37, Jim Weninger <jwen1@yahoo.com> wrote:

I should have just posted a picture:

http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/ f16a3a4c14a6428a80a7fda5497938 5a/taurus-constellation- zodiac-1822-hrnx1j.jpg

Note the ecliptic, compared to the horns.  This event of the sun passing between the horns happens even now.

To misinterpret the Bull of Heaven as a solar system object/configuration, would be to throw out all the important information that has been passed down on ages.   All ages defined as the point of entrance of the sun into a particular sign.  As in, “when the sun comes to the first point of Aries on the Vernal equinox….”

From: Jim Weninger <jwen1@yahoo.com>
To: Juan Calsiano <juancalsiano@gmail.com>; “dj@argos.vu” <dj@argos.vu>; jhafner <jhafner@swcp.com> 
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: Taurus History

 

And just to get Taurus the bull out from where it should not be: the sun in Taurus is the figure of the bull with the sun between its horns. If we do not take it out of context as some catastrophists do, we find that the sun in Taurus, depicted as bull with sun between its horns, was depicted as a time marker. 
  I’ll quote from “Star Lore” by William Tyler Olcott,”the sun in Taurus was deified under the symbol of the bull…and is seen in the ruins of Egypt and Assyria” and “the Persians also were worshippers of the bull…and designated successive signs of the Zodiac by letters….with them A stands for Taurus…indicating that they considered the Bull the first sign of the zodiac” and “in fact in all the ancient zodiacs that have come down to us Taurus apparently began the year, and it seems to have been regarded as a Bull in all of the ancient Mediterranean cultures”

Also”the bull was an important object of worship with the Druids, and their great Tauric festival was held when the sun entered this constellation”

The point is merely that we can see that the bull and sun between the bulls horns was a symbol used even in the earliest ages to denote a constellation and our “time” within it. 

I am not arguing against a polar alignment of planets, but not ALL mythology is about this one event. Especially when we have clear written records that do say what this figure was all about.  




Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 11, 2017, at 8:10 PM, Jim Weninger <jwen1@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> http://www.astrology-zodiac- signs.com/history/taurus/
> 
> This would suggest that it was in Babylonian times that Taurus was first identified as the “Bull of Heaven”.
> I’ll try to search for a better reference